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roon hqplayer fidelizer yggdrasil ultrastream audio optimizer core mode ws2016

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#1 shinyc

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 01:48 PM

Music plays fine very reliably in classic mode. Very robust indeed. When I switch to ultrastream mode, things are not robust anymore. Music stops at random moments. Music playing lasts for few seconds to a few hours. It is also tough to start music. I have press the play button one, two or three times to get the music rolling. My setup is as follows:

 

JPlay settings

  • Engine: Classic
  • Dac Link: 170hz
  • PC Buffer: 0.02 sec
  • Throttle: ON
  • Hibernate mode: ON

 

My music play chain:

  1. Music Source Tidal (or QNAP NAS) -> 1G ->
  2. Roon Server on Mac mini OSX 10.13.3 -> 1G ->
  3. Control PC HQPlayer 3.20.2 on WS2016 core mode with Audio Optimizer 2.20beta6 + JPlay(streamer) 6.2 + Fidelizer Pro 8.1 -> 1G ->
  4. Audio PC JPlay 6.2 on WS2016 core mode with Audio Optimizer2.20beta6 + Fidelizer Pro 8.1 -> AQVOX USB ->
  5. Filter1 Uptone Regen -> No brand USB cable ->
  6. Filter2 Acousence USB module -> Optical cable ->
  7. Filter3 Acousence Isolator -> RJ45 cable -> S/PDIF adaptor(75ohm) ->
  8. DAC Schiit Yggy (Gen3)


#2 Marcin_gps

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 01:59 PM

Hi shinyc, 

 

1) Have you tried lower DAC Link with UltraStream?

2) Have you tried using the same settings in JPLAY panel (UltraStream) with JPLAYmini?

 

This will narrow down the possible reasons. 

 

Best regards,

Marcin


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#3 shinyc

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 05:33 PM

Hi Marcin,

 

Before I try lower DAC Link, can you give me a quick explanation what DAC Link is or does? Is it possible to characterize sound signature for the lower and the higher DAC Link? Can PC Buffer or OS Timer interval values affect music playing stability as well? BTW how can I test JPlaymini in dual PC config?



#4 shinyc

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 06:37 PM

Hi Marcin,

 

I can start music with 20hz/0.5s. Once music plays, I can change DAC Link and PC Buffer to more challenging values like 170hz/0.02s, which sounds best in my system (high sounds more tamed at this setting). I am letting it play the music continuously and see how long before music stops. I using Roon to stream continuous music selection.

 

Please note that if I start with 170hz/0.02s, Audio PC kinda freezes. Control PC side JPlay complains about not seeing Audio PC.Then, I have to reboot the Audio PC. Then, Control PC finds the Audio PC in the network. Strange behavior. Is this a feature (i.e. by design)?



#5 Marcin_gps

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 07:00 AM

Hi Marcin,

 

Before I try lower DAC Link, can you give me a quick explanation what DAC Link is or does? Is it possible to characterize sound signature for the lower and the higher DAC Link? Can PC Buffer or OS Timer interval values affect music playing stability as well? BTW how can I test JPlaymini in dual PC config?

It is a buffer essentially. Please see our manual for the explanation of all parameters: Settings panel

JPLAYmini should be run on control PC in dual PC setup. 

PC Buffer is less important, but it is tied with DAC Link. 

 

Hi Marcin,

 

I can start music with 20hz/0.5s. Once music plays, I can change DAC Link and PC Buffer to more challenging values like 170hz/0.02s, which sounds best in my system (high sounds more tamed at this setting). I am letting it play the music continuously and see how long before music stops. I using Roon to stream continuous music selection.

 

Please note that if I start with 170hz/0.02s, Audio PC kinda freezes. Control PC side JPlay complains about not seeing Audio PC.Then, I have to reboot the Audio PC. Then, Control PC finds the Audio PC in the network. Strange behavior. Is this a feature (i.e. by design)?

Please note that 170Hz is an extremely small buffer: ~6ms whereas e.g. foobar2000's lowest possible setting is 50ms. If playback stops then either audio driver is not capable of playing stable with such small buffers or packets between Control PC and Audio PC are not delivered in time (or are lost) which would point to a network issue. Mind you that UltraStream does not retransmit packets - it is using UDP instead of TCP.

 

So no, it is not by design. It's simply not possible for all systems to be able to use so small buffers.

 

Best regards,

Marcin


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#6 shinyc

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 03:19 PM

So it is a UDP transport (aka. spray and pray). What happens if a packet gets dropped. Audio PC process hangs? If that is the case, one must try to find that limit point. I noticed a pattern that with buffer set to a very small size (e.g. 170hz), higher sampling rate files (e.g. 192khz) would not start without first being played with lower rate files (e.g. 44.1 or 48khz). You wrote the code so you should know best. At 192khz, packet rate is not really high considering modern computers' capability. However, the very first few packets can get dropped when all processes are starting out, forking, malloc, caching instructions, interrupts, etc. If you suspect the same, you might have something to look at or think about. My 2 cents here. BTW, my setup is cruising might fine with ultrastream and 170hz/0.02s at least for now. I also suspect state of the Control PC (jplayasio interacting with HQPlayer and the sending process, streamer) is more critical. I am basing this suspicion that when I reboot Audio PC, I do not have to go through the ritual of playing lower rate files first before being able to play higher rate files. I also noticed that jplayasio sometimes acts up and render jplaysetting screen unavailable. If I shutdown the HQPlayer, I am able to bring up the jplaysetting screen again without rebooting. If this happens, many times the Audio PC needs to be rebooted to be recognized by jplay process(es) on the Control PC. So my boot sequence of Control PC is i) boot, ii) wait for Fidelizer to come up, iii) turn on HQPlayer with something other than jplayasio in its setting, iv) open the HQPlayer setting dialog box and choose jplayasio and hit OK, v) play a few 44.1khz files. Then, I have a stable system (I think). You can fix this Marcin :)



#7 Marcin_gps

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 03:30 PM

If packet gets dropped, playback simply stops. 


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#8 shinyc

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 03:52 PM

So where are the most likely packet loss points?

 

Control PC

HQPlayer -> jplayasio -> jplaystreamer -> OS -> driver -> NIC ->

 

switch ->

 

Audio PC

NIC -> driver -> OS -> jplay -> OS -> driver -> USB ->

 

DAC

 

Please excuse my crude depiction.



#9 Marcin_gps

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 03:59 PM

Between control PC and audio PC.  But like I said above - it's not necessarily a network issue.


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#10 shinyc

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 04:06 PM

Got it. Appreciate your support. 



#11 taxman2

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 01:16 PM

I've noticed something very odd. Last year when I was struggling with WS 2016 to make it play ultrastream at 700/0.01, I did all by the books and it wasn't happening. Until one day there was an update of minimserver. After update everything went perfect.


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Furman Elite (power conditioner), AO4, TC 3.1-server, Roon, HQP, fanless mini PC (Intel I5-Skylake), WS 2022 DataCenter core -16GB RAM, ,JCAT USB XE Card, JCAT Femto Net Card, 1 x 200VA Ultra Low Noise LPS, 4 x 100VA Ultra Low Noise LPS, JCAT USB Isolator, Singxer SU6, Gustard A26, Audia Flight Pre Mk III (dual mono class A preamplifier), Audia Flight FL50 Mk IV(dual mono class A amplifier), Focal Electra 1028BE,1008BE, Focal Electra sub;


#12 shinyc

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 02:26 PM

Hi taxman2,

 

It sounds to me it is an interaction issue between the minimserver and Jplay in the Control PC. Possibly minimserver got friendlier with Jplayasio by accident or by following communication protocols more closely. After hearing that jplay cannot tolerate a single packet drop, making the system as jitter free as possible is the paramount importance. Or I am thinking I can introduce extra buffers at the OS or driver level so there is less chance of dropping packets in the event jitters. But my system is quite stable with the ultrastream and 170hz/0.02s. I moved jplay packet traffic to different network. SQ got better. I hoping that this contributes to system stability as well. BTW making a direct network connection between the Control PC and Audio PC made sound worse (mid/high glare thing). My Control PC (mac mini) is and I think it is shooting out some nasty noise. After inserting a switch between the two PCs, SQ went to a new level.


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#13 taxman2

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 03:59 PM

What kind of switch are you using?


Furman Elite (power conditioner), AO4, TC 3.1-server, Roon, HQP, fanless mini PC (Intel I5-Skylake), WS 2022 DataCenter core -16GB RAM, ,JCAT USB XE Card, JCAT Femto Net Card, 1 x 200VA Ultra Low Noise LPS, 4 x 100VA Ultra Low Noise LPS, JCAT USB Isolator, Singxer SU6, Gustard A26, Audia Flight Pre Mk III (dual mono class A preamplifier), Audia Flight FL50 Mk IV(dual mono class A amplifier), Focal Electra 1028BE,1008BE, Focal Electra sub;


#14 shinyc

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 01:03 AM

http://www.waversasy...rxuhaquuc1v043a

 

  

 

General Switching Hubs & Waversa SmartHub ***Google Translation***
 
  Typical Switching Hubs  Waversa SmartHub power Large amount of noise generated by SMPS adapter Noise Free with 4 Li-ion batteries Clock Using Ultra Low Cost Crystal Oscillator  High-End Audio Grade Using High-Precision MEMS Clock   How the clock works  Generating a clock by using a vibrating property by applying electricity to a crystal (crystal) (a large displacement depending on temperature)  Semiconductors utilize the phenomenon of oscillation due to electromagnetic signal generation and operate with much more sophisticated operation and less displacement due to temperature  Jitter  Mass production  Minimize jitter Data movement display Blinking light △ (noise generation) X (no noise) LED display window X O (can be turned on / off when necessary, noise blocking) ARM AP (CPU) X (only for high-end products) O (network status monitoring and traffic control) USB Hub X O (2 USB A / 1 USB B) Case material Plastics are mostly used, and expensive products are made of iron Vibration control Excellent aluminum body use
 
 
 

 

I also employ an 8-port run-of-the-mill HP made switch. Now I have a different network connection configuration.

 

Control PC (mac mini)

- Network A -> firewire-to-ethernet -> SmartHub sw -> HP sw -> rest of the network (WAN, NAS, Roonserver, etc.)

- Network B -> Audio PC (directly connected to Control PC via a fancy network cable)

 

Audio PC (HDPlex/Asus)

- Network B -> Control PC(direct connection)

 

Control PC and Audio PC are connected directly with a switch in between. Later I might put a filter (probably a transformer type) to see if SQ improves. Both PCs are powered by a LPS, again HDFlex 100W or 200W. I think mac mini network ports are noisier. Some people say the via firewire-to-ethernet adapter is the better port but I am not so sure.

 

BTW system is very stable now (ultrastream @170hz/0.02s). It goes without a hiccup for 24 hours at least at a time (roon radio). Once it becomes unstable, I restart both machines with usual ritual routine. I think most important part of the ritual is I do not let HQPlayer connect to jplayasio automatically when it is first run. I change HQPlayer  setting to something other than jplayasio before shutting it down so it does not connect to jplayasio when it is run again. Once the HQPlayer is brought up into memory and nicely settled, then I change its setting to jplayasio. It is all empirical. My theory, however, is there is some sort of contention going on during the program initialization between them.

 

I am also thinking about powering the HP sw with LPS. It requires 12V but it has an odd looking power jack, sucks.



#15 shinyc

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 01:12 AM

Here we go again (with slightly better formatting)

 

**********************************************************************************************

 

Waversa SmartHub

 

Noise Free with 4 Li-ion batteries

Ultra Low Cost Crystal Oscillator

High-End Audio Grade Using High-Precision MEMS Clock

Semiconductors utilize the phenomenon of oscillation due to electromagnetic signal generation and operate with much more sophisticated operation and less displacement due to temperature

Minimize jitter
ARM AP (CPU) (network status monitoring and traffic control)

2 USB A / 1 USB B

Vibration control Excellent aluminum body use

 



#16 shinyc

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 01:21 AM

Oh I should have mentioned this. After inserting the SmartHub sw, SQ got better. That is why I am thinking mac mini is noisy.Hence, the thought of putting a network noise filter between mac mini and hdplex box.



#17 shinyc

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 06:54 AM

I called my dealer and they will charge me US$50 per battery change. Nominal battery change interval is every 12~18mo. So it seems Waversa guys gave up on the Japanese market because effectively Japanese customers are charged 9 times more than local customers here in Korea are. Battery is field serviceable. I also noticed that they jacked up the price. I got this a couple of years ago at around $500 but at $1,500, I cannot recommend. Uptone Audio is cooking something. A switch thing. JCAT switch is looking good with a way too cool price. I hear Uptone switch will command a much more reasonable price as do all other products they make.



#18 taxman2

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 07:32 AM

I am thinking of getting the Aqvox switch. They've announced an SE version. 


Furman Elite (power conditioner), AO4, TC 3.1-server, Roon, HQP, fanless mini PC (Intel I5-Skylake), WS 2022 DataCenter core -16GB RAM, ,JCAT USB XE Card, JCAT Femto Net Card, 1 x 200VA Ultra Low Noise LPS, 4 x 100VA Ultra Low Noise LPS, JCAT USB Isolator, Singxer SU6, Gustard A26, Audia Flight Pre Mk III (dual mono class A preamplifier), Audia Flight FL50 Mk IV(dual mono class A amplifier), Focal Electra 1028BE,1008BE, Focal Electra sub;


#19 shinyc

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 08:19 AM

Marcin_gps Please mark this topic solved. I think I found a work around. Thank you for your kind support.



#20 shinyc

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 08:27 AM

taxman2 Perhaps we can do the audio grade switch thing on a new topic or wait till we gather enough feedback on all those upcoming switches. Those are expensive ventures for developers, thou. Designing a low noise switching chipset. Otherwise just minding or mending clocks, power, re-patterning circuits, shielding, prettier boxes, and what not. It then becomes expensive for us.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: roon, hqplayer, fidelizer, yggdrasil, ultrastream, audio optimizer, core mode, ws2016

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